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MAGNUS-8M
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« on: October 09, 2007, 05:06:39 pm » |
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Soooo....someone please stop me.  (As in, MOSTLY I'm more griping about my problems with Linux, and hoping there's a way to slim down Windows a bit.) It's not like I love Linux or anything, but part of me just wants to have this sub-environment that I can boot into where I can freely use GIMP and/or Inkscape in its most native environment, and maybe run loads faster even with a few extras running in the BG. (Course, the Painter version I have is Windows, so I couldn't really-really use it by that point but y'know). Ahh yeah. Except there's one big fat problem. Linux hates me. After a few tries in the past, I've found out these things about Linux... - Linux generally doesn't like being installed on USB External Harddrives.
- Linux hates most Wifi, especially integrated as opposed to cards.
- Linux hates most laptops, especially with integrated mobile graphics cards.
- Linux doesn't always support widescreen resolutions right off the bat.
- Linux intially does not like Wacom tablets(as far as pressure sensing and scroll-wheel mice go)
Okay, can ya guess what I have for my laptop? Yeah, all of the above. How many times I have I tried installing Linux? If we go by 'times' as an event, probably three major times....but if you go by actual attempts during those times, probably 15 to 20. It's not like I *NEED* Linux, but for some reason the notion just kinda creeps up on me, and before I know it, I'm downloading and burning distros and attempting to boot them, getting Live-CDs to work just fine, but running into trouble with getting all of the components that I need to work....because if those components don't work, there's just no point in doing it. Not being able to have a stable/working WIFI mode is another problem...if there ARE fixes for it, I couldn't really download them right away....I'd have to boot back into Windows, grab the wrapper that should hopefully work, grab whatever drivers I have that I THINK might work, then boot back into Linux only to find that they don't work(which is something that happened before...I'd gotten the closest I've had to getting things to work, but they wouldn't). And oddly, for some distros, all I was allowed to do with resolution was a badly stretched 1024x768, and this monitor(which has its own problems btw) gripes if it's not at its native 1440x900 widescreen resolution. Some things I've done in the past.. ::Edited and recompiled the kernal on Kubuntu so that it would load USB support FIRST, then it was able to load Kubuntu off of my external HDD...but at that time, Kubuntu crashed on load every time. I've sense forgotten what it was that I had to edit to get it to do that. ::Downloaded wrappers and analyzed and imported which drivers I needed to get for it to work....it didn't. ::Tried to create new resolution modes within the OS to get it to realize I have/need 1440x900x32 resolution...it wouldn't. ::Tried to use GIMP with my Wacom...it just recognized it as a mouse MOST of the time. Distros I've Tried(nothing detailed) Ubuntu(with Beryl...was neat). Kubuntu An Art-based PuppyLinux(which had NO support for my Wacom tablet, WHY!? HOW are you ART based!?) Lime-something Linux(also with Beryl, and despite the resolution-gripes, was the closest I'd ever been to a real 'working' Linux) Permanent irritations: My external 160GB harddrive now tops out at 149. I'm not happy about that. I've tried to get Linux distros to remove whatever files are still on it, but it seems like nothing can see it and I have no way of really recovering it.....unless the whole 1024=1MB thing is actually "taking away" 11GB...
So where am I going with all of this.....I guess, I'm asking if anyone knows any good solutions for this sort of thing, or if there's any way to set up a secondary Windows XP account so that it drops a great amount of services(JUST on that account) and speeds up significantly? It's not like my computer is exceptionally slow, but there are times when Windows sort of 'hiccups' when Linux otherwise wouldn't and it kinda bothers things, and occasionally it'll screw up things if I was in the middle of actually drawing something. It'd also be nice if I could recover that 'loose' bit of 11GB, IF it wasn't there in the first place...
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dan
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« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2007, 05:38:00 pm » |
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Ok, resident Linux guru here. I'll correct you where you're wrong, and maybe attempt to point you in the right direction. After a few tries in the past, I've found out these things about Linux... - Linux generally doesn't like being installed on USB External Harddrives.
Most O/S's don't like, or won't install on USB hd's. Or that they will, but they initialize the USB stack on bootup, thus resetting the HD, and it losing access to it's boot device. Generically not possible, without a kernel tweak/hack. - Linux hates most Wifi, especially integrated as opposed to cards.
True, but as more and more integrated cards are released every day, it's hard for a kernel by default to support them all. It's like Windows in a way, in that it can only support a certain amount of devices. That limit is generally how many drivers they can fit on a CD/DVD without going too far. It's weighted more over the more popular devices/chipsets, rather than just cramming them all on there. - Linux hates most laptops, especially with integrated mobile graphics cards.
Also true, but as above, it's mainly a driver issue. Most laptops have everything on board. They have to. There's no PCI slots to expand with (Mini-PCI doesn't really count). But as new releases of linux come out, they start supporting more and more chipsets. - Linux doesn't always support widescreen resolutions right off the bat.
This is again a driver related thing. The standard VESA driver that comes with X supports the most widely used resolutions, and those are 4:3 based resolutions at most. Getting the driver to your video card will solve that. - Linux intially does not like Wacom tablets(as far as pressure sensing and scroll-wheel mice go)
Initially, it will see it as a mouse. As will Windows. libwacom (I believe), makes Linux see the pressure sensitivity. Distros I've Tried(nothing detailed) Ubuntu(with Beryl...was neat).
Beryl is such a neat piece of software. Ubuntu has some of that built in. XGL I think it's called. Not sure how you switch it on. But it involves you installing all your drivers to make it work. As does Beryl, actually. Kubuntu
Just a slight variation of Ubuntu. You shouldn't really see much difference. An Art-based PuppyLinux(which had NO support for my Wacom tablet, WHY!? HOW are you ART based!?)
Good question  Lime-something Linux(also with Beryl, and despite the resolution-gripes, was the closest I'd ever been to a real 'working' Linux)
Not sure what that one could be. Permanent irritations: My external 160GB harddrive now tops out at 149. I'm not happy about that. I've tried to get Linux distros to remove whatever files are still on it, but it seems like nothing can see it and I have no way of really recovering it.....unless the whole 1024=1MB thing is actually "taking away" 11GB...
That's not Linux doing that. That's the way HD's are. In work, I have a server with 400Gb (labelled) HD's in. I have 353Gb usable space. It's all to do with the definition of Gb. We define 1Gb as 1024Mb, and 1Mb as 1024Kb. They don't. They define 1Gb as 1000Mb, etc. It's not just related to that. It's also to do with the number of heads, sectors, etc. Plus the filesystem you use. Linux based filesystems may squeeze just that little more out than say, NTFS. NTFS is a very heavy filesystem, with it's major security things and all. Obviously, the FAT table has to store these, so that consumes some space. In fact, I have a bunch more servers at work with 160Gb labelled HD's, and they register at 149.35Gb (or thereabouts). There's absolutely nothing you can do about it, and you can't get that space "back", as it was never there to begin with. So where am I going with all of this.....I guess, I'm asking if anyone knows any good solutions for this sort of thing, or if there's any way to set up a secondary Windows XP account so that it drops a great amount of services(JUST on that account) and speeds up significantly? It's not like my computer is exceptionally slow, but there are times when Windows sort of 'hiccups' when Linux otherwise wouldn't and it kinda bothers things, and occasionally it'll screw up things if I was in the middle of actually drawing something.
Me and Cass use Linux here all the time. Admittedly, we have the Wacom tablet on a Windows PC, since CS2 is indeed more powerful than Gimp. However, if you can deal with some of the faults that Gimp carries, Linux is your best friend. You set it up right, then don't fiddle with it at all, and you'll be happy. We use Fedora Core 7 (formally RedHat), and it appears to be one of the better Linux distros around right now, supporting most major equipment, and added support for laptops all the time. FC7 saw a lot more drivers in the kernel. Cass's PC has an almost-brand new motoherboard. FC6 didn't recognise the LAN card, which meant we had to download the driver on my PC, put it on a USB stick, compile, load the kernel module, and reboot. FC7's kernel supports it by default. And you'll find that with a lot of new equipment. Windows will be the same. It won't recognise a piece of hardware, either it knows what it is but can't find drivers for it, or it hasn't got a clue what it is, therefore doesn't know where to start looking for drivers. 9 times out of 10, you go to the vendor's website (be-it the laptop manufacturer, or the motherboard manufacturer, or the chipset manufacturer), and they'll most likely have a Linux driver of some description, whether it be a module you just load in, or something you compile (the latter is most common). Hope this helps, anyhoo 
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MAGNUS-8M
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« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2007, 07:58:48 pm » |
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Heh heh, I have to admit I was kinda fishin' for ya to reply...  Well like I mentioned, all of the bulleted lists were things I picked up along the way, things I saw in passing on other forums I found through Google searches and whatnot...all of them applied to the situation at the time, so it's all I could do to feel it was true. I wanted to install it to my external harddrive because I'm a little too anxious about installing it to my main harddrive, especially since it was only 60~70GB to begin with, and I'm already down to 36 or so. But these days I'm finally using the external as a storage device, so I hope if I do manage to get one working that it won't erase or prevent access or prevent adding-to that collection of stuff. Good to know that my HDD's fine then. It still has a folder on it that prevents access, but if that's what it comes out to, then great. (I should have just done the math myself seeing as I had the idea right....meh-well). FC7 sounds good...it's not 'too much' though, is it? Although it sounds like it would have the best support for me if I managed to get it going, it almost sounds like it'd have as much loaded and going on as Windows, but I dunno.
Thanks for the help anyway. If there IS a chance to get into it again, I'd need some major help though....I don't quite have my mind wrapped around the concepts of having to recompile and all that, or how to manage downloads/updates and things like that, but I'm sure if I used it often enough I would. *shrug*
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dan
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« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2007, 08:57:20 pm » |
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like i said, 9 times out of 10 you'll be fine. it depends mostly on how old your laptop is. if it's more than say 6 months old (new as in hot off the factory lines, not new from the shops..), then the latest fc will probably have drivers to support most of your hardware. fc7 is as easy to use as windows is, almost. i suggest going for the kde install over the gnome, but i think that's just a matter of preference more than anything else. if you have a folder on your hd that you can't get into, then it's most likely an ntfs partitioned drive (windows xp?). if so, right click on the folder in question, go to the security tab, click advanced, and go to the ownership tab. change the owner to yourself, and apply the changes. then go to the main security tab, set your username to full permissions, tick the "replace recursive permissions with new ones" (that's the inheritance section), and apply & ok. it *should* reset the ownership on the directory, and let you in to see what's in there. or delete it, whichever you've been trying to achieve.
if you're using your external drive as your storage place, then you'll have no problems talking to that in linux. linux started to come with native ntfs support a while back. not for it's own file systems, that's still ext2/3 & lvm, but it can talk to, read from and write to ntfs based drives, so you can still access your stuff. you'll probably get some weird files alongside your normal files. ntfs stores so many properties for each file, the fat table isn't big enough, so it stores the data as extremely hidden files, starting with $. much like linux has files starting simply ".". then again you might not. i've seen both scenarios.
fc7 is as big as you want it to big, and is as much or as little as you want. remember, fedora core is still used on some of the major internet facing servers today. you can install it as a text-based operating system, with no desktop whatsoever. or you can have a desktop-based server, or a workstation. there literally is thousands of combinations you can run fc with. you get bundles defaults of course. "server", "workstation", "graphics", etc. each basic bundle of options installs all the tools you'd need to acheive what you want the box to achieve. so for instance "server" installs web servers, database servers, all the management tools, etc. "workstation" installs koffice (or openoffice), maths tools, accounting tools, etc. you get my drift. in the installer, you can browse the packages and install them there and then, thus making your install personalised. and each application name comes with a description of what it is or does. really does hold your hand through it, and would be probably one of the easier distros of linux to work with. the easiest being ubuntu, since you actually boot into gnome to install it off the live cd! (never done this though, so don't ask!!!)
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MAGNUS-8M
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« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2007, 09:52:04 pm » |
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Ahhh boy, looks like I'm having problems again already... Llllet's see, what were they all.....well, for one thing, attempting to look at my external harddrive resulted in a 'not shut down properly' message, telling me to go back into Windows and use the 'Safely Remove' option first.....soooo if that does work, I just did that. But before I boot back in... I had another gripe-session with the whole network thing. This time when I booted into Linux with this Fedora Core 7(KDE, i686), and sure enough it DID recognize that I had an integrated WIFI and had the right driver and etc. But it wouldn't connect. I'm pretty sure the data was all entered correctly, except that the first time, I forgot to enter my WEP key. So I decided to try to enter that, but the dialog....when I would switch the type of key being used(I didn't think it was WEP Passphrase, or Hex, but most likely ASCII), the "OK" button would gray-out and become unclickable. Eventually it didn't gray-out when I selected WEP Hex, which I was pretty sure it wasn't, but I hit OK anyway since it was the best I could get. Then it crashed. Magnus + Stable Linux OS = Crash = ....Linux hates me. :p It came up with some sort of 'SILVSEVD(?)' "probably a bug in the software" error, and closed itself. It was a program I found in the tray near the clock, and no matter where I looked, I just couldn't seem to find that program again anywhere.  So until I know exactly what's going on, I'll probably need to hold off on it for a while. For one thing, GIMP wasn't included, so no internet means I'd have to make a large effort to getting around things to obtain it. The OTHER problem is that whatever support they had for my WACOM tablet(whether it was 'just a mouse' or pressure sensing) was VERY awkward.....when I resorted to putting in my USB Tiny Mouse it worked fine, but with my 4:3-sized drawing tablet, I couldn't fully reach the left edge of the screen(I could reach both top and bottom and the RIGHT side of the screen, but it would stop just short of the 'HOME' and 'K-Button(I'mma jest call dis deh Start boton kthx)' and I just could not get to it.) x_x; I know it's weird having a 4:3 sized drawing tablet and a 16:9-ish resolution, but Windows is more or less like 'oh well, whatever, do it'....I'm not sure if I ever have discrepencies or if I've just adjusted to it on my own, but as far as I know it mostly works fine(I could see it doing something like...everytime I move 1 pixel the onscreen pointer moves 2...I'm not sure which way to think of it, but), but in Linux it's not letting me go to certain areas. *shrug* I can live with it if I have to though, it's not like it was really in the area I normally draw in... Anyway, that's my luck...I crash only the best...@_x; Anyway, if you know anything off the top of your head, that's cool, I don't want to be pushing this on ya.......I might try it later, but for right now I'm going to hold off on trying it again myself.
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dan
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« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2007, 05:20:57 pm » |
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Ahhh boy, looks like I'm having problems again already...
Llllet's see, what were they all.....well, for one thing, attempting to look at my external harddrive resulted in a 'not shut down properly' message, telling me to go back into Windows and use the 'Safely Remove' option first.....soooo if that does work, I just did that. But before I boot back in...
It's possible that Linux thinks that for all NTFS based drives. Depending on how Windows shut down just before you booted Linux. It does that sometimes. It looks for a flag on the HD and if it can't find it, it says it wasn't shutdown (or may be damaged), and requests you do a filesystem check. It can't do that for NTFS, but it's own filesystems it uses what's called fsck (File System ChecK), which scans the HD, fixes anything wrong, and flags it as "clean". I had another gripe-session with the whole network thing. This time when I booted into Linux with this Fedora Core 7(KDE, i686), and sure enough it DID recognize that I had an integrated WIFI and had the right driver and etc. But it wouldn't connect. I'm pretty sure the data was all entered correctly, except that the first time, I forgot to enter my WEP key. So I decided to try to enter that, but the dialog....when I would switch the type of key being used(I didn't think it was WEP Passphrase, or Hex, but most likely ASCII), the "OK" button would gray-out and become unclickable. Eventually it didn't gray-out when I selected WEP Hex, which I was pretty sure it wasn't, but I hit OK anyway since it was the best I could get.
I myself have never had to deal with Linux on Wireless networks, so I can't really help you. I'm a wired-network man, and they almost always work so long as it picks the card/chip up in the first instance!. Then it crashed. Magnus + Stable Linux OS = Crash = ....Linux hates me. :p It came up with some sort of 'SILVSEVD(?)' "probably a bug in the software" error, and closed itself. It was a program I found in the tray near the clock, and no matter where I looked, I just couldn't seem to find that program again anywhere.  That'll be KDE, for some reason. Or a KDE component. Probably nothing major. To get back KDE applets that crash like that, they won't be in the menus. Right click on the KDE taskbar, and click "Add Applet to Panel". Then it'll give you a list of little applets and tools you can add to the panel. I have a little game, on my panel. I never play it, but it's cool! So until I know exactly what's going on, I'll probably need to hold off on it for a while. For one thing, GIMP wasn't included, so no internet means I'd have to make a large effort to getting around things to obtain it.
The live CD may not come with it, as GIMP is a large application in itself, and will probably take a lot of space on the CD. If you download the DVD to actually install though, you'll have the option to install it straight off the CD. (You may even find Wacom drivers on there. Not sure whether it's at a stage to be bundled yet). The OTHER problem is that whatever support they had for my WACOM tablet(whether it was 'just a mouse' or pressure sensing) was VERY awkward.....when I resorted to putting in my USB Tiny Mouse it worked fine, but with my 4:3-sized drawing tablet, I couldn't fully reach the left edge of the screen(I could reach both top and bottom and the RIGHT side of the screen, but it would stop just short of the 'HOME' and 'K-Button(I'mma jest call dis deh Start boton kthx)' and I just could not get to it.) x_x; I know it's weird having a 4:3 sized drawing tablet and a 16:9-ish resolution, but Windows is more or less like 'oh well, whatever, do it'....I'm not sure if I ever have discrepencies or if I've just adjusted to it on my own, but as far as I know it mostly works fine(I could see it doing something like...everytime I move 1 pixel the onscreen pointer moves 2...I'm not sure which way to think of it, but), but in Linux it's not letting me go to certain areas. *shrug* I can live with it if I have to though, it's not like it was really in the area I normally draw in...
Again, that'll be, on the most part, down to the driver. The tablet is meant to represent the whole screen. So on a regular 4:3 screen, a 4:3 table will represent the screen. Imagine your desktop just beneath the drawable area on your table (like a touch-screen monitor). Problems arise (and I've also seen this on Windows), when your screen is 16:9, and your tablet is 4:3. It has to compress your entire 16:9 screen to fit in the 4:3 space. So your drawing appears longer than what you intended. I would have thought this would have been configurable. But again, I've not spent too much time with it. What you're experiencing is Linux without the Wacom driver, and it thinking it's just a mouse. But the Wacom isn't passing movement points to the Kernel like a mouse does. The tablet is passing screen co-ordinates. In this case, distance from the top/right, which is why every time you present the pen to a particular point on the tablet, your cursor ends up in the same place on screen. The driver talks to the tablet to ensure it passes the right set of co-ordinates. It even tells the tablet the screen resolution, so that it can get the co-ordinates right. No driver, makes it do what you've got it to do  Anyway, that's my luck...I crash only the best...@_x; Anyway, if you know anything off the top of your head, that's cool, I don't want to be pushing this on ya.......I might try it later, but for right now I'm going to hold off on trying it again myself.
The crash you had wasn't actually an entire Linux crash, just a component. Me and Cass have it sometimes too. I nearly said "all the time" there, but then realised that it wouldn't actually be true. We get something weird/crash happen once every few weeks or something. Depends on how they feel. My "all the time" crashing phrase comes from my still-used-to-Windows-ness. Have to use Windows at work, see. 
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Metalclay
Chocobo
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« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2007, 10:58:19 pm » |
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yeah, linux does hate those things, but...if you look around for the proper drivers, you'll eventually find the one you need. Especially with the release of new distros. For example with edgy, it was such a pain to get beryl working on my ati card (i hate you ati), but with feisty fawn it was waay easier (i still hate you ati, nvidea ftw). It was also a pain to get my wnic working, but eventually i found one...after two days of googling... umm...anyway, I would recommend checking out ubuntu forums for very specific stuff. they see these cases everyday and usually reply within 24hrs. also...eh, i wouldn't go with linux on a laptop. I tried dual-booting xp and ubuntu, but it was just a waste. get another computer (preferably build your own desktop), and then install ubuntu on the entire laptop hdd  it's your choice of course.
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MAGNUS-8M
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« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2007, 11:57:58 pm » |
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Well, right now I'm in no position to 'just get another computer', but I almost have to. I guess that's an idea.....if I do have to replace it, I guess installing Linux on it wouldn't hurt until the video/motherboard dies, if it does.
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Yumil1988
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2007, 05:49:21 pm » |
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Hmm, somehow I was blind and didn't notice this before. I'd love to talk you out of installing Linux, but I just threw Ubuntu on my PC a few day ago so I'm not really in a position to do that.  That said, I wasn't trying to put it on a USB drive, or a laptop. And now I know why Wireless isn't always playing nice. It was rather weird actually. When I first started it, Ubuntu picked up all the wireless networks in the area even though the antenna wasn't plugged in. >_> Now it's plugged in and it doesn't always pick them up. I think it's possessed. I also found out why it keeps bugging me about my screen resolution and why I can't figure out how to fix it (I just let it chop off the far right side of the screen). This thread is very informative. 
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